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15/12/2021 10:04 pm
YESSSSSSS!!!
Spoiler
Seeing the blip from the blipped's perspective was freaky! My hat is off to whoever came up with that concept and imagery!
Yelena's chat with Kate was a lot of fun and certainly messed with Kate's mind.
If the song hadn't been used in reference to Kingpin I would've had a much larger problem with it being used... As much as I love "You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch" I despise it being considered a "Christmas song". There is not a single word or sentiment in the lyrics about the holidays. Yes, it is a song from a Christmas story but it is *NOT* about the holiday in any shape or form, it's there to point out what a miserable being the Grinch is and that is why it exists.
Man, o, man... there is going to be some serious acting going on next week and I'm 100% certain now that I'm going to be seeing Charlie Cox on the big screen come Saturday... :D
My friend told me to stop quoting the Monkees. I thought she was joking. But then I saw her face.
Topic starter
16/12/2021 12:34 am
Let me put a new spin on that. I'm going to be a producer apologist for once, after this episode. I trust Kevin Feige knows what he's doing. One of the reasons a person should never say that is because no producer anywhere ever deserves that specific level of benefit of the doubt. But even if the stuff with Ronin and Maya's father was not a dealbreaker to whether or not this show would be narratively successful, it was the metric on which I enjoyed it. Learning that Kingpin framed Clint for that actually make narrative sense, and it makes it so I don't have to hate Clint.
Making "narrative sense" has nothing to do with anything. Feige, D' Esposito and Alonso did the same thing they always do: They took their inspiration straight from the source material. Respecting the comics (Which you think all suck and you've said so many times even though you've only ever read, like, three of them or something) is EXACTLY why they're much more successful than DC or Sony. IN THE COMICS ... Kingpin tricked Echo into thinking Daredevil killed her father. The tragedy there was Daredevil is blind and Echo is deaf. They had no real way of communicating with each other. Fisticuffs ensued. At least in the MCU, Hawkeye could use sign language to communicate with Maya. This will, of course, set up a Echo/Kingpin showdown in the Echo series. I would bet money that a certain Man Without Fear will have a role to play in that.
Some of the arguments I got against not hating Clint for that was that no matter how sweet Papa Lopez appeared, he worked for Kingpin, and could have been up to some truly heinous stuff. And I was like, "If that's true it's a narrative failing because making him such a sweetheart confuses an issue that shouldn't be confused." Having Clint tell Maya he was framed by her boss basically cleared the board with every real reservation about the series I had left.
Well, no. It still wouldn't have been a "narrative failing". Kingpin loves his wife and son dearly. With all his heart. He would do anything for them. He also wouldn't hesitate for one second to kill another man's wife and son. And the man. Baron Helmut Zemo loved his wife and kids, too. He also killed T'Challa's Father and a room full of other dignitaries and diplomats, then pinned it on the Winter Soldier. Doctor Victor Von Doom loves the people of his native Latveria. He would go to war with the rest of the world to protect them. He considers them all his subjects and his responsibility. He will also kill them if they break one of his laws.
I'm sure Echo's father loved his daughter. He treated her like solid gold. She clearly was his whole world. He also worked for the Kingpin.
Is it possible to be a loving, sweet, charming human being on one hand and still be a complete murderous sociopath on the other? OF COURSE IT IS. Dude. I know you've never read any comics, but you've NEVER seen a Hitchcock movie? Or any suspense movie for that matter?
Topic starter
16/12/2021 1:05 am
So about the show ...
Spoiler
WHAT IS THE STORY WITH THE WATCH? Laura seems more interested in the watch than Clint is. Did it belong to her? She speaks German? Since when? She knows trade craft? I thought she was a housewife/soccer mom, but she is clearly much more that. Did she used to be a SHIELD agent? Is she Mockingbird?
AND IF LAURA IS MOCKINGBIRD ... Are we seeing the beginnings of the West Coast Avengers? Hawkeye, Mockingbird, White Vision, Scarlet Witch, Hank Pym, Janet Van Dyne, Moon Knight, USAgent, War Machine ... Also, Kate had a friend named Greer that we saw in the first episode. Greer Nelson, aka Tigra?
WHO HIRED YELENA TO KILL CLINT? The Black Widow post credits scene implies that Yelena got the assignment from the Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine (Boy, that gets to be a bitch to type after awhile). In the latest episode of Hawkeye, it appears that Kate's mom, in conjunction with the Kingpin, hired her. Are Contessa and Eleanor related? Sisters, maybe? And what is Contessa up to, anyway? What's her endgame?
WHY DOES ELEANOR WANT CLINT DEAD? Anyone? Anyone? Ferris?
WHAT'S THE SWORDSMAN'S DEAL? He can't really be that big an idiot. Can he?
More later
16/12/2021 1:33 am
Making "narrative sense" has nothing to do with anything. Feige, D' Esposito and Alonso did the same thing they always do: They took their inspiration straight from the source material. Respecting the comics (Which you think all suck and you've said so many times even though you've only ever read, like, three of them or something) is EXACTLY why they're much more successful than DC or Sony. IN THE COMICS ... Kingpin tricked Echo into thinking Daredevil killed her father. The tragedy there was Daredevil is blind and Echo is deaf. They had no real way of communicating with each other. Fisticuffs ensued. At least in the MCU, Hawkeye could use sign language to communicate with Maya. This will, of course, set up a Echo/Kingpin showdown in the Echo series. I would bet money that a certain Man Without Fear will have a role to play in that.
Pretty sure I've never said what you said I said in bold. Weren't you just carping on me for overexaggerating in an offensive manner?
And I've read plenty of comics. I know great comics exists. Watchmen was great. Shazam: Monster Society of Evil was great. The Batman Adventures comics were great. For me to dismiss an entire industry and every project I've never read sounds very unlike me. I am skeptical you can find a post that says what you are saying I said.
Is it possible I insulted superhero comics in general? Generally, from what I read elsewhere a LOT of comic book plotlines piss me off. Norman Osborne banging Gwen Stacy? Dr. Light raping and killing Sue Dibney? Captain American being Hydra? Joker crippling Barbara Gordon while undressing her and sending candid shots to her father? Am I actually wrong and those specific comic books were the height of quality and great writing? Because I doubt it. And if I've taken shots at superhero comics in general that I haven't read, it's because of stuff like that.
Are there great superhero comics that haven't caused such a stir? No doubt. But the controversial stuff is pretty much all anybody talks about and where I'm getting most of my information. If people talked up solid storytelling more often, I'd have that as a basis to go on instead.
For the record, the idea of Daredevil having to prove his innocence to Echo with both of their specific disabilities is neat and a great hook.
I am approaching all of this fresh. I do not really know how Feige ties this stuff into the comics, or how faithful it is. I am judging it based on other genre stuff. I'm complimenting both the show and the producers and didn't mention the comics once. It's weird you are giving me shit for this positive review.
Well, no. It still wouldn't have been a "narrative failing". Kingpin loves his wife and son dearly. With all his heart. He would do anything for them. He also wouldn't hesitate for one second to kill another man's wife and son. And the man. Baron Helmut Zemo loved his wife and kids, too. He also killed T'Challa's Father and a room full of other dignitaries and diplomats, then pinned it on the Winter Soldier. Doctor Victor Von Doom loves the people of his native Latveria. He would go to war with the rest of the world to protect them. He considers them all his subjects and his responsibility. He will also kill them if they break one of his laws.
I'm sure Echo's father loved his daughter. He treated her like solid gold. She clearly was his whole world. He also worked for the Kingpin.
Is it possible to be a loving, sweet, charming human being on one hand and still be a complete murderous sociopath on the other? OF COURSE IT IS. Dude. I know you've never read any comics, but you've NEVER seen a Hitchcock movie? Or any suspense movie for that matter?
I don't agree. Here is something you may be shocked to hear: I may have seen a Hitchcock or suspense movie or two and disagree / dislike that aspect to them. Believe it or not, I can dislike a bogus trope like the conflicted sociopath even if it's done by critically praised filmmakers. I am allowed to think that specific thing is bullshit and bad storytelling. Shocker.
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16/12/2021 7:11 pm
Spoiler
I'm hearing some people saying that Ronin still killed her father so now I don't know what to think.
ThunderCats Wish List: Ram-Bam, Cruncher, Topspinner, Turmagar, Tuska Warrior, Safari Joe, Luna, Amok, Red-Eye, Tug-Mug, Nayda, Driller, Snarfer, Ro-Bear Bill, Ro-Bear Belle, Ro-Bear Bert, Mumm-Rana, Dr. Dometone, Quick Pick, Stinger, Captain Bragg & Crowman, Astral Moat Monster, Spidera, Snowmeow, Wolfrat.
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17/12/2021 12:02 am
Spoiler
Super mild barely a spoiler for Spider-Man
I now understand why Yelena said she wanted to see the new Statue of Liberty
this is in the right thread by the way
18/12/2021 10:51 pm
Something I missed in the animated part of the credits this week...
Spoiler
First week there was no animation but after that the animated part of the credits ended with a shot of Clint and Kate on opposing rooftops in a skyline shot, this week changed that shot up a bit by placing the image within the silhouette of Kingpin...
My friend told me to stop quoting the Monkees. I thought she was joking. But then I saw her face.
22/12/2021 5:09 pm
Spoiler
Episode 6
wow, I’ll post more later but I loved that. If you asked me right now, Hawkeye would be one of my top MCU projects.
one thing I’ll say now, there’s zero chance Maya shot Kingpin. Echo will start with her shooting past him in this very scene
Matt Zimmer reacted
23/12/2021 12:04 am
Hawkeye "So This Is Christmas?"
Spoiler
I found Clint's scene with Yelena very moving. They both miss and love Natasha so much.
I laughed at the stuff with Kate and Yelena though. I love Kate telling her to stop making her like her, and her telling her she couldn't help it. The bits on the elevator were a scream.
I was unsatisfied with the stuff with Maya simply because I couldn't tell if it was Clint who killed her father or not. And it doesn't make too much sense to bring in Vincent D'Noffrio as Kingpin just to kill him off in his first appearance. Although he's probably not really dead.
Speaking of Kingpin, it's interesting that this episode and this show is better than every single episode of Daredevil. Fisk seems more menacing here too. I believe he ripped a door off a car in an earlier episode of Daredevil too but he hasn't done it in awhile.
I like that Clint made it home for Christmas.
I love the bit where the guy in the Track-Suit Mafia gratefully thanks Kate for her excellent advice about his relationship with his girlfriend while they are punching the hell out of each other. They are still fighting, but he wants her to know how much he appreciates it. I love that. It's awesome.
Seeing the whole Rogers: The Musical Avengers number is not what I'd call a satisfying tag. I always thought it was awful. I didn't need to see the whole thing. I will say it's kind of funny thinking it exists in the same episode as D'Noffrio's pitch-black, psychotic Fisk. I don't see any Netflix show ever doing a scene that much fun. Even if it's dumb.
It IS refreshing that this is the first live-action Marvel Studios show with a closed (and happy) ending and not fiddling around with tags setting up other stuff. Frankly, I personally think Marvel Studios needs to do more movies like that too.
I like Kate asking what happened next with the Pym arrow, and then the owl just carries away the truck. That solves that problem.
I like the Larpers asking Jack to join them at the end. Jack's antagonistic relationship to the rich kid was funny too.
Mrs. Bishop sort of throwing in Kate's face that she was a hero sending her mother to prison on Christmas shows that Eleanor is a piss-poor mother and an even worse human being. Jiminy Christmas and All Dat Noise. And I thought Norma Bates was bad.
Solid finale. ****1/2.
ThunderCats Wish List: Ram-Bam, Cruncher, Topspinner, Turmagar, Tuska Warrior, Safari Joe, Luna, Amok, Red-Eye, Tug-Mug, Nayda, Driller, Snarfer, Ro-Bear Bill, Ro-Bear Belle, Ro-Bear Bert, Mumm-Rana, Dr. Dometone, Quick Pick, Stinger, Captain Bragg & Crowman, Astral Moat Monster, Spidera, Snowmeow, Wolfrat.
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23/12/2021 4:44 am
Spoiler
Now that he's connected to the LARPers I'm betting the next time we see Jack he's wearing a version of that hideous comic book costume Mike posted above...
As for the complete musical number, I didn't need to see it, either... *but* I understand the reason that it was included. There was a lot of work put into the set, staging, rehearsing, filming and editing of that bit just so that it could be edited into the story bits and dialog that were going on during that part of the episode. That clip was included to show off all of the hard work (and money) that went into it for that tiny bit of time that it got during the actual episode. The sad thing is is that there are people who actually want Disney Theatrical to make Rogers: The Musical into a real thing...
and, um... MIke...
My friend told me to stop quoting the Monkees. I thought she was joking. But then I saw her face.
23/12/2021 6:25 am
Spoiler
Expanded thoughts on episode 6
Per usual, I’m going to do this bullet point style
I really thought Kates mom would be more evil, perhaps that’s coming now that she’ll have some jail time
I loved Clint telling Kate that they were partners
Maya really needed more time here to wrap up her story but I suppose that was never the point with her own show coming
Kingpin is still great and seems to have taken some venom or something in the MCU lol
Kazi really didn’t turn out to be much and he’s pretty bad at his job
the tracksuit bros were funny and great trick arrow fodder. That one guy thanking Kate for the girlfriend advice in the middle of the fight was hilarious
trick arrows…so awesome. The magnet one that stole the guns and the reverse pym tech were my favorites
I guess Jack was just an innocent weirdo this whole time. I actually enjoyed him in this episode though, especially when he got that bratty kid with the pee pants
the larpers helping out was cool but considering their real jobs, they should be better at crowd control I would think
I can not say enough good things about Yelena. The screen practically sparkled when she was on it. Her fighting with Kate was hilarious and her final scene with Hawkeye was great. I’m glad they both found some closure there
Poor Christmas tree
like I said before, there’s no way Kingpin is dead. I previously said she shot past him but apparently in the comics she shoots him, he’s temporarily blind and then he’s fine. Time will tell if that’s the route we’re going but I still predict that Echo will begin right there with that gun
Good for Kate for turning in her mom. I love my family but if they’re murdering people and working with the mob, I’m turning them in too
It was nice of the Barton family to allow Kate and lucky to crash Christmas
Agent 19! I really hope we see more of that. I love Linda and she should be given more to do #LaurenOverTopanga
We need so much more of our new Black Widow and Hawkeye
I hope OG Hawkeye is still around too. He’s basically responsible for bringing Wanda and Kate into the Avengers now
i sat through that whole musical number and I understand why it was there but I don’t care about it either. I honestly expected one of two things…one, we would see a disappointed old man Cap watching this or two, Scott Lang would be in the audience with Hope who would be teasing him about how he wasn’t actually there
i plan on rewatching the entire show soon now that I can binge it but I don’t think my previous opinion will change. I thoroughly enjoyed this show. By far my favorite show and one of my favorite MCU projects to date.
Matt Zimmer reacted
24/12/2021 4:18 am
My biggest fear about the musical number is that Disney Theatrical will think it's a good idea to put together a full production. Though I can't imagine it being as bad as Spider-Man: Turn Out the Dark...
My friend told me to stop quoting the Monkees. I thought she was joking. But then I saw her face.
Matt Zimmer reacted
24/12/2021 2:58 pm
My biggest fear about the musical number is that Disney Theatrical will think it's a good idea to put together a full production. Though I can't imagine it being as bad as Spider-Man: Turn Out the Dark...
My biggest fear is that it’s going to be stuck in my head forever lol
Matt Zimmer reacted
25/12/2021 6:04 pm
Here's the music credits for the series. Everything listed in the credits is here including duplications. Some of tracks appear to be from a stock music service so I included the company info with those but otherwise I left out the writing and company credits. Putting this in spoiler tags so that it doesn't make for a page scrolling nightmare.
Spoiler
Hawkeye Season 1 Music Credits
HAWKEYE (Season 1)
Episode 1: Never Meet Your Heroes
We Wish You a Merry Christmas
The Craig Gildner Sextet feat. Tony Liberato
Winter Wonderland
Matt Dusk
It Came Upon a Midnight Clear
Jerry Kalaf
Save the City
The Cast of Rogers: The Musical
Christmas is the Season
Jo Stafford
A Holly Jolly Christmas
Dom Halpin
Merry Christmas, Baby's Coming Home
Luvenia Lewis
Sleigh Ride
Lou Rawls
Global News
Joshua Goldberg (Extreme Music)
Five-to-Four On
David Lee
The Greatest
John Isaac Charles Coggins (Extreme Music)
Hard-Hitting News
Jordan Kareem Rees (APM Music/KPM Music)
It's the Most Wonderful Time of the Year
Andy Williams
Episode 2: Hide and Seek
Donde Esta Santa Claus?
Augie Rios
Ring of Fire
Jack David Elliot (APM Music)
Breaking News
Johnny Pearson and Dave Hewson (APM Music/KPM Music)
O'Tannenbaum
Mitglieder des Chores der Staats-Oper Berlin
The Nutcracker - March
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky (Exteme Music)
Hard-Hitting News
Jordan Kareem Rees (APM Music/KPM Music)
Little Drummer Boy
The City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra & Crouch End Festival Chorus
Hark! The Herald Angels Sing
David Ian and Acacia
Christmas Island
Depeche Mode
Episode 3: Echoes
Touch
Sweet Spirit
O Christmas Tree (Russian)
Las nouveaux bohemiens
Jingle Bells
Paul Eakins
A Mad Russian's Christmas
Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Father Christmas
The Kinks
Old-Fashioned Christmas
Jack Huddle
Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy
Cornelius Oberhauser (APM Music)
Hung Hei
Linda Ko
A Marshmallow World
Brenda Lee
Sweet Gingerbread Man
Sammy Davis Jr.
Episode 4: Partners, Am I Right?
O Little Town of Bethlehem
Drivn Litkei (APM Music)
Away in a Manger
Jimmy Wakely
Mele Kalikimaka
The Puppini Sisters
Theme from "Avengers: Endgame"
Alan Silvestri
The Christmas Song (Merry Christmas to You)
Nat King Cole
Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer
The Temptations
A Wonderful Life (from the motion picture "It's a Wonderful Life")
Dimitri Tiomkin
Christmas High Street
Larry Ashmore (APM Music)
Ding Dong Merrily on High
Sammy Burdson and John Charles Fiddy (APM Music)
Bells, Bells, Bells
Meco
Black Widow Theme
Lorne Balfe
The Only Gift I Need
Tara Chantelle Chinn, Andy Powell and Dominic Marsh (APM Music)
O Tannenbaum
Danny Curtis Pelfrey and Mark Stephen Ross
Snow Wonders
Myuu
Episode 5: Ronin
Black Widow Theme
Lorne Balfe
Christmas Time is Here
Vince Guaraldi Trio
Themes from "Avengers: Endgame"
Alan Silvestri
Cello Sonata No. 2 in C Major, G.6
Fedo Amosov & Jen-Ru Sun
Letter to Santa
Chuck Hess
Christmas in Hollis
Run-DMC
December the 24th
King Juju
Back Door Santa
Clarence Carter
Joy to the World
Town Pipers
You're a Mean One, Mr. Grinch
Thurl Ravenscroft
Episode 6: So This is Christmas?
Silent Night
Cassietta George
Black Widow Theme
Lorne Balfe
Christmas High Street
Larry Ashmore (APM Music)
The Twelve Days of Christmas
Ray Conniff & The Ray Conniff Singers
Oh Christmas Tree
Bournemouth Symphony Chorus, Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra
Save the City
The Cast of Rogers: The Musical
Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas
Ella Fitzgerald
We Wish You a Merry Christmas
The Craig Gildner Sextet feat. Tony Liberto
My friend told me to stop quoting the Monkees. I thought she was joking. But then I saw her face.
Matt Zimmer reacted
15/09/2022 2:29 am
For Fone... 😝
My friend told me to stop quoting the Monkees. I thought she was joking. But then I saw her face.
Matt Zimmer reacted
